| Author | Message | 
  
    | Kajunfisher Joined: Apr 3, 2005
 Posts: 13
 ID: 3565
 
 | I have 2 wu's where I am the only one in the quorum, credit still 
      pending:
 197081
 
 197006
 
 I have 1 wu where there is 
      another host that errored out, credit still pending:
 
 196994
 
  | 
  
    | Neil 
      Woodvine  
  Joined: Mar 
      14, 2005
 Posts: 17
 ID: 3317
 
 | Well unfortunatley i've been able to duplicate the results from the 
      other nightaccording to task manager i have currently 34 sextant 
      processes and 4 starboards but i'm not seeing the abnormal credit i had 
      yesterday , the only slight difference i've seen is a 1.9 credit for a 
      sextant as opposed to my normal 1.7 =/
 
 i'll keep fiddling 
      though
 
 @one eye , the sooner these bugs get out in the open ( in 
      the hands of a dev ) the sooner they can get fixed i'd hate to see what 
      would happen if someone who isn't as "honest" as you would do with the 
      knowledge.
 
 
  | 
  
    | one 
      eye Joined: Sep 19, 2004
 Posts: 91
 ID: 
      1149
 
 | > It would be simple to have the scheduler running on the project 
      site check> that the number of targets requested is at least the 
      quorum, and decline to
 > put out thework and log an error if it is 
      not.
 >
 That would work also but my I put this?:
 
  
 That's a nomal view of a regular predictor Work Unit 
      (quorum=3).
 
 The "points" returned are realy close, even the final 
      used cpu time differs
 form the minimum/maximum of over 100%
 
 The 
      implemented "rules" for taxing it as an error or outside "normal" would be 
      not far or at least not effective as it should.
 
 I believe, a 
      scheduler based verifying and "filtering" can't be done for
 obtaining a 
      high leveled secured validation. But could be wrong.
 
 | 
  
    | Neil 
      Woodvine  
  Joined: Mar 
      14, 2005
 Posts: 17
 ID: 3317
 
 | I think I may have stumbled across one of the ways one eye had boosted 
      his credit, I saw something similar in his explanations on the 
      board.
 The other day I finally figured out how some of the 
      crunchers are able to get so many workunits to crunch ( where I normally 
      only get a few , but this maybe to do with the new scheduler on the client 
      , not really sure ) which is to click update and then rest my stapler on 
      the enter button on the keypad and walkaway and have a cup of 
      tea.
 
 Now in my excitement I got a little carried away downloading 
      the sextants and overloaded my comp with units ( won't do that again, 
      sorry =/ ) when I realised that they were going o come in late I tried to 
      pause the already late units and make the client work on the work units 
      further down the list which had a chance of finishing on time ( 
      coincidentally the same time you took the schedulers offline yesterday 
      ).
 
 After I paused the first ten or so units instead of going on to 
      the next unit in the queue it went back to the first ( which may have 
      something to do with the panic/deadline mode in the new scheduler ) and no 
      matter how much I fiddled with it , it wouldn't work on the work units 
      that would make it on time.
 
 So I unpaused them all and figured I'd 
      at least crunch them even if I didn't get credit as they would be late. 
      When I came back an hour later I noticed that the work units were taking 
      12 minutes instead of the unsual 8 and incrementing in the amount slightly 
      as it moved to the next work unit, all of which were claiming higher than 
      usual credit. When I opened task manager it showed multiple instances of 
      the sextant running ( which is what reminded me of the picture in one 
      eye's post ). I believe if I had kept pausing unspausing the units to make 
      more instances I would have been able to boost the requested scores of all 
      the remaining work units.
 
 Well not wanting a public flogging and 
      feeling like I had been caught with my hand in the cookie jar I reset the 
      the project to clear all these work units and condemn them to the 
      depths.
 
 I hope that this information helps and sorry for wasting 
      those work units =/
 
 
  | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > Now it can be talked about which part should do this,> the 
      core client or the application?
 
 It would be simple to have the 
      scheduler running on the project site check that the number of targets 
      requested is at least the quorum, and decline to put out thework and log 
      an error if it is not.
 
 - Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | one 
      eye Joined: Sep 19, 2004
 Posts: 91
 ID: 
      1149
 
 | ...especially unusual credit recieved even if it appears 
      ..
 there are many reasons to have "unespected" values.
 
 For 
      example when a project offers work like at LHC, based on 
      simulation.
 
 Even with the same expected cpu time, the finaly used 
      CPU Time
 can vary much from several seconds, several minutes of even 
      using the full expected cpu time.
 
 So technically this will be 
      unsuccessful to to. Even a history (sever side)
 can't offer the 
      "security" desired.
 
 with a quorum of 2(3) the excess can be put 
      down/narrowed, but not the cheat itself..
 
 (time = basis for 
      "credits")
 
 As mentioned above, lookto that situation:
 1 host 
      receives work and then the cpu speed is dropped by half. Whats the 
      sitution now?
 
 
 > > Wormholio: shouldn't the program that 
      BOINC sites use be changed too. a
 > simple
 > > check to 
      prevent target less than quorum?
 
 The only way I see to prevent for 
      "sure", it's to put an additional tag into the client_state, with the 
      checksum of the cputime, md5 based of what ever.
 
 At the time when 
      the workunit gets the state of "uploading" or "rRep"
 
 Now it can be 
      talked about which part should do this,
 the core client or the 
      application?
 
 
 | 
  
    | Ben 
      Christy Joined: Apr 13, 2005
 Posts: 4
 ID: 
      3647
 
 | > >
 > Not hard to make a 
      href="http://pirates.vassar.edu/result.php?resultid=455495">result 
      claim a
 > lot more than it should have.
 >
 > Of course 
      it did not take my PC that long :
 >
 >
 > CPU time 
      40802.6875
 >
 > worker: CPU time: 40802.140625 seconds, Wall 
      clock time: 40867.546875 seconds
 >
 >
 > but there is no 
      checksum that makes the server reject edited client_state.xml
 > 
      entries.
 >
 
 How hard would it be to impliment and how secure 
      would it be if public keys were used to encode results before they were 
      put in the queue for transmition back to host site?(which would decode 
      with its private key)
 
 this would put another layer of protection 
      between programs and users since they would need to hack the program 
      instead of just the result file.
 
 other than time to program the 
      implimentation I can see no down side
 
 | 
  
    | Ben 
      Christy Joined: Apr 13, 2005
 Posts: 4
 ID: 
      3647
 
 | ......> >
 > > But no, the system finaly took and 
      granted the upper result. Why, I cant
 > > write.
 >
 > 
      I can offer a theory here. Your result and another were both returned, 
      but
 > not yet processed. Yours was validated first, and with a 
      quorum of 1 it
 > became the "canonical" result. The other then 
      should have received the same
 > credit.
 >
 > Or are 
      there counterexamples?
 > -------------
 
 this is a good 
      reason to always report unexpected results... especially unusual credit 
      recieved even if it appears to be a gift. you would complain if you 
      requested 2 credits but only recieved .02 so you should also complain when 
      your 2 credit request results in 200. in this case it is an indication 
      that a cheater has shanghied you for the ride. next time someone else will 
      get the top deck if you don't make him walk the plank now.
 
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > Wormholio: shouldn't the program that BOINC sites use be changed 
      too. a simple> check to prevent target less than 
      quorum?
 
 Ideally, yes.
 
 - Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | Ben 
      Christy Joined: Apr 13, 2005
 Posts: 4
 ID: 
      3647
 
 | Wormholio: shouldn't the program that BOINC sites use be changed too. a 
      simple check to prevent target less than quorum?
 | 
  
    | Ananas Joined: Mar 23, 2005
 Posts: 27
 ID: 3453
 
 | 
 Not hard to make a result claim a lot more than it should have.
 
 Of 
      course it did not take my PC that long :
 
 
 CPU time 
      40802.6875
 
 worker: CPU time: 40802.140625 seconds, Wall clock time: 
      40867.546875 seconds
 
 
 but there is no checksum that makes the 
      server reject edited client_state.xml entries.
 
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > I belive I can repair this in the database and get companions for 
      all those> lonely WU's. Standby...
 
 The first thing I tried 
      didn't seem to work, and I don't think it is related to the DB corruption 
      we just went through. Will try some other things in a bit...
 
 - Eric 
      Myers
 
 | 
  
    | Neil 
      Woodvine  
  Joined: Mar 
      14, 2005
 Posts: 17
 ID: 3317
 
 | Aye one or two here aswell
 452501 0.40
 452504 0.40
 452828 1.79
 452829 1.75
 452830 1.75
 452831 1.75
 452832 
      1.77
 452838 1.77
 452839 1.77
 452841 1.76
 452845 1.75
 452852 1.76
 452854 1.73
 452856 1.75
 452857 1.81
 452867 
      1.77
 452870 1.78
 452871 1.79
 452873 1.74
 452875 1.79
 452877 1.73
 452881 1.71
 452883 1.72
 452884 1.71
 452889 
      1.70
 452890 1.69
 452893 1.69
 452895 1.69
 452897 1.69
 452900 1.69
 452902 1.69
 452903 1.69
 452905 1.69
 452906 
      1.69
 452907 1.70
 452913 1.70
 452914 1.69
 452915 1.69
 452920 1.70
 452921 1.69
 452922 1.68
 452924 1.68
 452925 
      1.68
 452928 1.68
 452931 1.68
 452934 1.67
 452943 1.67
 452954 1.67
 452958 1.68
 452959 1.68
 452961 1.68
 452963 
      1.68
 452964 1.68
 452965 1.68
 452967 1.69
 452969 1.68
 452970 1.69
 452972 1.68
 452974 1.67
 452986 1.67
 452987 
      1.67
 452989 1.67
 452991 1.67
 452999 1.68
 453000 1.67
 453002 1.67
 453003 1.67
 453004 1.68
 453005 1.67
 453006 
      1.68
 453011 1.68
 453013 1.68
 453014 1.68
 453016 1.68
 453018 1.68
 453019 1.69
 453020 1.68
 453021 1.68
 453022 
      1.68
 453026 1.69
 453030 1.68
 453031 1.69
 453032 1.68
 453035 1.68
 453036 1.68
 453037 1.68
 453039 1.68
 45341 
      1.68
 453042 1.69
 453097 1.68
 453099 1.69
 453100 1.69
 453102 1.69
 453103 1.69
 453104 1.69
 453105 1.69
 453138 
      1.75
 
 
  | 
  
    | peg leg Joined: Aug 13, 2004
 Posts: 23
 ID: 746
 
 | I have a couple too Capt'n ... :/
 Result ID Claimed credit
 448086 0.23
 448625 0.18
 449394 0.23
 449544 0.19
 449973 
      0.24
 450136 0.18
 450140 0.18
 450487 0.37
 450612 0.36
 450619 0.36
 450694 0.19
 453355 2.84
 453363 2.87
 453371 
      2.88
 453377 2.90
 453379 2.89
 453383 2.88
 453406 2.89
 453410 2.87
 453416 2.89
 453417 2.88
 453418 2.90
 453426 
      2.88
 453441 2.89
 453445 2.88
 453446 2.84
 453450 2.85
 453453 2.82
 453455 2.85
 453456 2.88
 453463 2.84
 453473 
      2.84
 453492 2.78
 453498 2.63
 453499 3.00
 453503 3.00
 453507 2.98
 453508 2.84
 453509 2.98
 453511 2.87
 453522 
      2.46
 453523 2.94
 453524 2.56
 453526 2.55
 453528 3.00
 453529 2.83
 453530 2.94
 453531 2.56
 453534 3.00
 453536 
      2.94
 453537 2.56
 453538 2.67
 453542 2.56
 453543 2.84
 453545 2.94
 453546 2.55
 453547 2.85
 453549 2.84
 453550 
      2.65
 453551 2.93
 453553 2.84
 453555 2.56
 453558 2.84
 453559 2.55
 453560 2.84
 453563 2.56
 453566 2.85
 453567 
      2.55
 453570 2.85
 453571 2.54
 453572 2.99
 453573 2.55
 453574 2.85
 453575 2.55
 453576 2.93
 453577 2.55
 453579 
      2.55
 453580 2.85
 453584 2.85
 453586 2.83
 453587 2.54
 453588 2.82
 453589 2.53
 453590 2.80
 453591 2.52
 453592 
      2.80
 453593 2.52
 453594 2.80
 453595 2.53
 453596 2.98
 453599 2.52
 453600 2.98
 453601 2.53
 453602 2.80
 453605 
      2.53
 453606 2.98
 453607 2.53
 453608 2.80
 453609 2.54
 453610 3.00
 453612 2.79
 453613 2.55
 453614 2.80
 453616 
      2.80
 453617 2.82
 453618 2.55
 453620 2.56
 453622 2.55
 453623 2.81
 453624 2.84
 453625 3.00
 453626 2.84
 453628 
      2.82
 453629 2.56
 453631 2.56
 453633 2.55
 453636 3.00
 453637 2.55
 453641 2.86
 453642 2.99
 453643 2.55
 453644 
      2.97
 453645 2.82
 453646 2.82
 45650 2.55
 453658 2.56
 453659 2.95
 453660 2.56
 453661 2.98
 453662 2.81
 453664 
      2.86
 453667 2.93
 453668 2.86
 453672 2.56
 453673 2.55
 453675 2.82
 453676 2.87
 453677 2.85
 453681 2.84
 453682 
      2.95
 453683 2.84
 453685 2.56
 453688 2.92
 453691 2.55
 453692 2.94
 453694 2.98
 453695 2.55
 453696 2.70
 453697 
      2.79
 453698 2.95
 453699 2.88
 453700 2.74
 453702 2.86
 453704 2.86
 453705 2.83
 453706 2.84
 453707 2.95
 453708 
      2.56
 453709 2.99
 453710 2.93
 453712 2.90
 453713 2.86
 453715 2.50
 453722 2.92
 453723 2.83
 453724 2.98
 453725 
      2.55
 453726 2.97
 453727 2.86
 453728 2.76
 453729 2.85
 453738 2.60
 Pending credit: 450.04
 
 
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > > "The Capt'n is now resetting all his workunits to a quorum of 
      two. He> will not make the same mistake twice."
 >
 > 
      Captn,
 >
 > i have a few results pending since last night, and 
      they seem that they won't
 > get credited....
 
 The Capt'n won't 
      make the same mistake twice, he'll make a different mistake. :-)
 
 I 
      set the quorum to 2, but the number of target results to 1. So one WU was 
      sent out, and now it's waiting for 2 to come back to fill the quorum. 
      Interesting situation.
 
 I belive I can repair this in the database 
      and get companions for all those lonely WU's. Standby...
 
 
 - Eric 
      Myers
 
 | 
  
    | Femue Joined: Mar 22, 2005
 Posts: 3
 ID: 3423
 
 | > "The Capt'n is now resetting all his workunits to a quorum of two. 
      He will> not make the same mistake twice."
 
 Captn,
 
 i 
      have a few results pending since last night, and they seem that they won't 
      get credited: http://pirates.vassar.edu/workunit.php?wuid=196891 (see 
      also wuid 196943, 196985, 196986, 196987, 197107).
 
 Shouldn't there 
      be a quorum of two? Will they ever leave the 
      pending-status?
 
 Aye
 Femue
 
 | 
  
    | Mchl Joined: Sep 23, 2004
 Posts: 6
 ID: 1228
 
 | > >What else can we learn from it? II>
 > This 
      project is much more important to keep it alife to test, evolute 
      and
 > optimize the the client-server nad the server part.
 >
 > with or without "public work"
 >
 I've been always 
      repeating that!
 Aye!
 
 
 
 
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > This should be front page news. Brought to you by the team of 
      peg leg and one
 > eye. Sponsored by Pirates!
 
 Good idea. 
      Consider it done.
 
 
 - Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > cptn,>
 > finaly found an wonderful example, please 
      look here
 >
 > 2 results and a quorum of 
      1?
 
 Yes, this shows that BOINC is acting as expected. The first 
      result (yours, with the "modified" claimed CPU) is taken as the canonical 
      result, but the second result is already "out there", so when it returns 
      it is also granted credit.
 
 After a little reflection, I think the 
      proper paraphrase from Red October is (please imagine this being said by 
      Sean Connery):
 
 "The Capt'n is now resetting all his workunits to a 
      quorum of two. He will not make the same mistake twice."
 
 I believe 
      that is all that is required to prevent this little mischief, but let's 
      see, If you like, Mr. one_eye, please try your trick on the latest 
      starboard workunits to see what happens. I expect we will then be able to 
      link to a WU which shows the attempt and how it fails. If Mr. peg_leg ends 
      up running the other Result from the same WU then he will keep you honest 
      again. ;-)
 
 
 - Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | peg leg Joined: Aug 13, 2004
 Posts: 23
 ID: 746
 
 | To peg leg for his keen eye in all this and courage to report knowing 
      full well of possible damage to personal relationship even beyond this one 
      project.==========
 
 Yes, it was a very difficult decision for me 
      to make as I do or did have personal contact with one eye. I actually 
      waited about 24 hr's to see what or where this was leading to before 
      finally reporting the WU's. In the end though I feel I had to do what was 
      right no matter what the cost was to me ... :/
 | 
  
    | Contact  
  Joined: Aug 
      29, 2004
 Posts: 117
 ID: 873
 
 | Most exciting pirate thread to date!Big respect to all here.
 To 
      peg leg for his keen eye in all this and courage to report knowing 
      full well of possible damage to personal relationship even beyond this one 
      project. And for declining the gold bullion you show you truly are not a 
      'rich man'
 
 Respect for the Capt. for making all the right 
      moves.
 
 Praise for one eye, not punishment.
 If he comes clean 
      and helps us fix the problem, then there is no problem.
 
 Real 
      question remains. why, dear boinc do you allow this 
      technically
 I have had fleeting thoughts of doing this myself, so 
      i'm sure have many others.
 This should be front page news. Brought to 
      you by the team of peg leg and one eye. Sponsored by 
      Pirates!
 
 
 
  Click and enter 
      your name for your BOINC Statistics
 | 
  
    | one 
      eye Joined: Sep 19, 2004
 Posts: 91
 ID: 
      1149
 
 | captn,
 finaly found an wonderful example, please look here
 
 
 2 results and a quorum of 1?
 
 might your are right, 
      the result was returned quicker as the regular one
 
 now going to bed 
      looking to the reply tomorrow.
 
 Stupid I am, why didn't I asked for 
      a full week/month/year cputime ;)
 
 The "boinc time" calculation 
      started somewhere at 1.1.1970.
 Wondering what would happen, when a time 
      is reported so high, that it would fall below 1970...
 
 more 
      mysteries?? take a short look into the q+a of LHC, where a brave mate got 
      a time warp. This host has due bios reset a brocken time 
      epoche
 
 enjoy!
 
 http://lhcathome.cern.ch/forum_thread.php?id=1310
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > Some other applications came with the quorum of 2, and there I 
      assumed, 2> possible estimates a+b/2 or only taking a, where a is 
      the lower returned
 > result. I let manage some results, based on 
      random, to "get" a final time of
 > 14 - 40 hours per hello/mello or 
      how all they are called.
 
 It seems the quorum on hello, yello, and 
      sextant were all set at 1, and that explains how this was possible. 
      Nothing more is needed.
 
 >
 > But no, the system finaly 
      took and granted the upper result. Why, I cant
 > write.
 
 I can 
      offer a theory here. Your result and another were both returned, but not 
      yet processed. Yours was validated first, and with a quorum of 1 it became 
      the "canonical" result. The other then should have received the same 
      credit.
 
 Or are there counterexamples?
 
 - Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | peg leg Joined: Aug 13, 2004
 Posts: 23
 ID: 746
 
 | Peg_leg should get a T-shirt and some gold 
      bullion=========
 
 Send the T-Shirt & the hell with the gold 
      bullion, T-Shirts are much more valuable ... hehe
 
 I never meant no 
      harm to one eye and I still consider him a friend even though he quit our 
      team. As a Team Founder I just felt it was just something I had to report, 
      if the Team Founders don't keep a check on their own Team Members then 
      there's not much hope for the Projects when it comes to cheating IMO 
      ...
 | 
  
    | Ageless 
  Joined: Jul 
      20, 2004
 Posts: 83
 ID: 180
 
 | > > The question is, should Mr. one_eye receive praise or 
      punishment for his> actions? What do the crew think? ;-)
 
 I 
      think he should get a T-shirt, then be slashed with the cat o' nine tails. 
      Since he didn't say anything about it himself.
 
 Peg_leg sould get 
      a T-shirt and some gold bullion. If you know where you hid some of yours. 
      ;)
 -------------------------
 Jord.
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > > I wonder how he managed to run the unit for over 53,000 
      seconds. If you> > check his other WUs, there's ...
 >
 > The work was done on regular way somehow in 120-150 sec. others 
      took 15
 > minutes
 >
 > The assistance came later, but 
      before the work was uploaded.
 
 Basically, he hacked the reply to 
      change the CPU time after the WU finished but before it was 
      uploaded.
 
 For a quorum of 1, you get all you request, if the WU is 
      valid. We've been using the 'trivial' validator, so any WU which completes 
      succesfuly and does a little time is valid.
 
 For a quorum of 2 you 
      get some combination of the two requests. It should be the lower of the 
      two, as described here, but it's possible to set up a project to use a 
      different policy. It may be that we are configured to take an average 
      rather than the lower of the two. I'll have to check, as I've not focused 
      on this end of the project.
 
 The redundancy of setting the quorum 
      > 1 is supposed to protect against this, but it won't protect against a 
      conspiracy. If the quorum was 2 but Mr. peg_leg was conspiring with Mr. 
      one_eye they both could have still received higher credit because they 
      both shared so many WU's. But that is in part due to the small nature of 
      our project.
 
 A required quorum of 3 gives further protection 
      against conspiracy, but would be harder on a test project like this. I 
      trust we will not have to institute such a policy.
 
 It is also 
      possible to put more careful checks into the validator to scrutinize WU's 
      more closely after they are uploaded. So there are ways to defend against 
      this for a real 'production' project.
 
 Mr. peg_leg should be 
      commended for his keen eye in all this.
 
 The question is, should Mr. 
      one_eye receive praise or punishment for his actions? What do the crew 
      think? ;-)
 - Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | one 
      eye Joined: Sep 19, 2004
 Posts: 91
 ID: 
      1149
 
 | > I wonder how he managed to run the unit for over 53,000 seconds. 
      If you check> his other WUs, there's
 
 The work was done 
      on regular way somehow in 120-150 sec. others took 15 minutes
 
 The 
      assistance came later, but before the work was uploaded.
 
 | 
  
    | one 
      eye Joined: Sep 19, 2004
 Posts: 91
 ID: 
      1149
 
 | >With the apps based on 1 quorum, the result could be 
      estimated.
 
 Some other applications came with the quorum of 2, and 
      there I assumed, 2
 possible estimates a+b/2 or only taking a, where a 
      is the lower returned result. I let manage some results, based on random, 
      to "get" a final time of 14 - 40 hours per hello/mello or how all they are 
      called.
 
 But no, the system finaly took and granted the upper 
      result. Why, I cant write.
 
 
 Right now having problems to show an 
      example, I'm going/went trough the work all the clients returned 
      yesterday,( many comutation error :-( ) but could not find 
      anymore.
 
 This could have the origine, that I merged all what I 
      could, to blur the traps..or a server based script was executed to 
      reinitialize the result -grating based on the lower ones or to build a new 
      "canonical" result.
 
 It helpes much to get more work, while the last 
      rpc times are set in a (user friendly) deep value. Would this number 
      increased, the individual will "rant" but the work could offered to more 
      people.
 
 -->GT the min rpc times, between 2 
      requests.
 
 Others are outside of boinc, more relating to network 
      technologie
 
 More work=more "points"..
 
 Forbit the framework, 
      but it's part of the design of boinc..
 
 If I'm not confusing the 
      movie, in red hunt october they had to destroy the
 "remote console" by 
      hand to regain the controll over the fireing system
 
 >Do you 
      agree that this is enough to prevent this little trick?
 I dont know it 
      for sure. It looks like only above 2 quorums, the "security" will prevent 
      the game of numbers.
 
 What are you doing when a client, let's say 
      running with 2000 MHz is getting work (from any kind of project) and the 
      cpu speed is reduced to let's say 500 MHz? even quorum based, the result 
      could be "different".
 
 
 
 Very legal way to optimize the 
      returning "points" is simple to open the show grafic..
 
 This 4.45 
      Host has some work, over rpc I suspended all work on WU level and an other 
      rpc was enabling the grafic
 
 (working on a "own" scheduling the 
      scheduler where it's possible to run the 4.4x in time frames, as long as 
      there isn't a "problem with deadlines)
 
 A far bid more Credits" can 
      be collected.
 
 
  
 
 >What else can we learn from it? 
      II
 
 This project is much more important to keep it alife to test, 
      evolute and optimize the the client-server nad the server 
      part.
 
 with or without "public work"
 
 
 | 
  
    | Ageless 
  Joined: Jul 
      20, 004
 Posts: 83
 ID: 180
 
 | I wonder how he managed to run the unit for over 53,000 seconds. If you 
      check his other WUs, there's one 
      he did in 109,000+ seconds. 
 Then there's the question of 
      quota. What's the quota per CPU here? 100 per day?
 That person has had 
      223 so far for today.
 
 I think I got 2 last night. Might be wise to 
      set stricter rules. ;)
 -------------------------
 Jord.
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > Also the very unique Setup of this project did it's part, so 
      the question
 > could be (construtive modus) why, dear boinc do you 
      allow this technically??
 
 
 I am curious on this point. The app 
      you used for this had a quorum of 1, since they were only minor tests and 
      I wanted to get them back quickly. I've since set the quorum to 2, which 
      should prevent such mischief. [Flash to scene in Hunt for Red October 
      where Tupelov is trying desparately to remove the safety settings from all 
      his torpedoes :-) ]
 
 Do you agree that this is enough to prevent 
      this little trick?
 
 What else can we learn from it?
 
 
 - 
      Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | one 
      eye Joined: Sep 19, 2004
 Posts: 91
 ID: 
      1149
 
 | Treachery amongst us?
 No. But curiosity if it works. Yes it 
      did:(
 
 If it helps, here are my sincere apology.
 
 Hope certain 
      person can refind now the sleep..and calm down
 
 Nobody got a brocken 
      leg, taking a more realistic view, those are just numbers.
 
 That 
      what happen on Sunday morning, that's a real problem with a much 
      higher impact.
 
 Indeed boinc is working great as designed;) In every 
      point of view.
 
 Before this project will close, I just had to get 
      seccured Information.
 
 Experiments are not limited to the people of 
      boinc. Sometime the rat is leaving the kittchen.
 
 What a bug is, 
      depends only of the point of view, talk to "some" developers stuff, they 
      never believe the can be bug(s), even if "everybody" can feel and see 
      it..
 
 finaly some words, it social, as far as I could see, several 
      other people got also more (indirectly) as they estimated to get... 
      therefore this is social.
 
 Also the very unique Setup of this 
      project did it's part, so the question could be (construtive modus) why, 
      dear boinc do you allow this technically??
 
 
 so relax, it was a 
      limited trial.
 
 alls the "points" so far, have been done on regular 
      way.
 
 Started selfpunishement, using alpha releases of cc:(
 
 I 
      will stop posting here and not giving reply,
 
 if somebody 
      realy wants/needes to know more, feel free to send a email
 
 No 
      experiments, no progress:)
 
 
 no 
      sig
 
 vahallah!
 
 added:
 (how some can be limited to credits! 
      What can you buy for? Nothing.
 
 Much more concerned by the security 
      lacks of the boinc architecture
 
 Reported them last year, no answer 
      got so far..)
 
 
 
 
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | > The problem I had with the whole thing was that I know this person 
      keeps on> top of his computers enough to know he was getting this 
      type of Credit and if
 > it was a bug then he should have reported 
      himself ...
 >
 > Being that I know this person I really hated 
      to report it myself & it
 > probably isn't going to sit very well 
      with him, but what is right is right I
 > feel ...
 
 Keep in 
      mind that the point of this project is to test BOINC (and screensaver 
      graphics, of course). If a problem has been found it should be reported, 
      investigated, and fixed. Credit isn't the most important thing on this 
      particular project.
 
 I also believe this person is on top of his 
      machines enough to know what is going on. If he's done this intentionally, 
      then he may have even jacked up the credit enough that it would be 
      noticed, just to get our attention. Or not. I'm hoping he'll let us know 
      what is up.
 
 Otherwise we might have to convene a Court Martial! 
      ;-)
 
 
 - Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | peg leg Joined: Aug 13, 2004
 Posts: 23
 ID: 746
 
 | The problem I had with the whole thing was that I know this person 
      keeps on top of his computers enough to know he was getting this type of 
      Credit and if it was a bug then he sould have reported himself 
      ...
 Being that I know this person I really hated to report it 
      myself & it probably isn't going to sit very well with him, but what 
      is right is right I feel ...
 | 
  
    | kolch 
  Joined: Jul 
      22, 2004
 Posts: 34
 ID: 379
 
 | A couple of points...
 Either it is too hard, not always possible 
      to, or as a result of a bug that some WU's from this host are claiming 
      high credit. The majority of the results claimed reasonable credit 
      amounts.
 
 The large claims are not always granted.
 
 I think it 
      is most likely a bug, or maybe a cheat made possible by the more relaxed 
      rules of granting credit for this project. Just my thoughts.
 
 | 
  
    | Wormholio  Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 6, 2004
 Posts: 353
 ID: 1
 
 | Well it's one thing to be hacked from the outside. We can repel all 
      borders, and have done so recently.
 It's quite another thing to 
      have a member of the crew gaming the system.
 
 It seems one of us may 
      have found a way to do so.
 
 Now it might be a bug, in which case we 
      track it down and squash it. That's part of our job.
 
 Or it might be 
      he's figured out a way around the credit system. I have my suspicions on 
      what's up, but I want to hear his explaination first.
 
 If he comes 
      clean and helps us fix the problem, then there is no problem.
 
 And 
      if he doesn't come clean...?
 
 ...the expanded choice of project 
      preferences is back on-line, and he can choose his prefered punishment, 
      subject to the suggestions of the crew and the will of the 
      captain.
 
 [Edit] I've moved the posts on this topic to a new 
      thread.
 
 - Eric Myers
 
 | 
  
    | peg leg Joined: Aug 13, 2004
 Posts: 23
 ID: 746
 
 | This host is littered with granted credit over 100 ... Some have almost 
      170 credits granted ... 
 This is just one of them ... WU
 
 | 
  
    | Rusty Forum moderator
 
 
  Joined: Jun 29, 2004
 Posts: 46
 ID: 17
 
 | > Sorry to say I'm going to drop this Project, there is some highly 
      suspicious> activity going on with the Credits being given out to 
      certain people IMO ... I
 > don't mind a little competition but when 
      I see over 100 Credits being given
 > out for a WU that shouldn't 
      take more than a few minutes to complete & all
 > I'm getting is 
      .15 Credits for the same type WU's then something is rotten in
 > 
      Denmark I think ...
 >
 
 You are right, that should not happen. 
      Especially with the WU's we are giving out. So there must be a problem 
      somewhere, and this project is all about finding and fixing problems in 
      BOINC and the screensavers. Can you point out the WU's that are getting so 
      much credit, so we can track down this problem?
 
 
 -- Rusty McGee 
      Johnson
 
 | 
  
    | peg leg Joined: Aug 13, 2004
 Posts: 23
 ID: 746
 
 | Sorry to say I'm going to drop this Project, there is some highly 
      suspicious activity going on with the Credits being given out to certain 
      people IMO ... I don't mind a little competition but when I see over 100 
      Credits being given out for a WU that shouldn't take more than a few 
      minutes to complete & all I'm getting is .15 Credits for the same type 
      WU's then something is rotten in Denmark I think ...  |